I’ve got a (possibly scandalous!) question for you related to last week’s discussion about Cosmetic Procedures. But first, some backstory:
On our visit to the beach at Deauville, we were getting our chairs and towels situated, when I looked up and realized many of the women on the beach were topless. Not everyone, mind you — I didn’t feel at all out of place wearing my swimsuit — but there were plenty of examples. It’s not like this was an official “topless beach,” it was just a normal public beach, and if you wanted to sunbathe topless, you could. This was the first time I had ever been to a French beach, so I didn’t know, but I’ve since heard it’s the norm here. And I have to say, it was not at all what I imagined a topless beach to be.
Before I visited Deauville, the words “topless beach” brought to mind something scandalous — like a frat party from a movie or a glimpse into life at the Playboy mansion. But the women I saw on the beach were not 18 year olds, they were my peers. Some younger, some older, but pretty much all of them with children and a husband, having a regular family day at the shore. I didn’t want to stare, but I couldn’t help notice these were women who had evidently nursed their children. : ) I was unexpectedly impressed by these women. They weren’t trying to draw attention to themselves, and they weren’t trying to be “sexy”, but they were totally comfortable in their skin and they had very normal bodies — among the full spectrum of “normal”.
Now, I realize there are different standards of modesty in different cultures — from burkas to topless bathing. (Fun fact: I’m a Mormon, and there are some Mormons who believe showing your shoulders is immodest.) I also realize that Americans are nutso when it comes to breasts — implants are commonplace, but women go to great lengths to cover up while nursing their babies. Bizarre! So, pretending modesty isn’t part of the equation, my question is: How do you feel about your body? Are you confident enough in your skin to hang out at the beach topless? (I don’t think I am.) Also. Have you ever visited a beach with topless bathers? Was it shocking?
image by Oh Happy Day
I’m always so intrigued at how the American culture formed itself, people here have no problem wearing very revealing clothing, yet at the same time they are very uncomfortable with certain things- am I right? I hate what a pain it is covering up while nursing. I would be so fine with just doing it (and some places I don’t bother, like at church in the nursing room) But I don’t because it would make other people so uncomfortable and many would stare- I do however still think there is a time and place for it you know…I don’t think I would just whip it out during an after dinner conversation with company! But at the park or beach, sure sure.
America is mind boggling. As a European who has lived here for over 10 years I don’t get the fear of the nipple and the boob….but it’s perfectly fine to turn on a cable tv on a sunday afternoon and I can easily find some awful show that depicts slashed throats, rape, dismembered bodies and other crap…but the beauty of a female body…I was laughing the other day. I was watching “Bizarre Foods with Andrew Zimmer” and I swear to god, there was a warning that there would be some “nudity” because he was in the Kalahari desert and well, that’s what the tribe wore (or didn’t). It struck me as odd. So, because this is a “Tribe” in Africa, the breasts are fine….but if it were a white woman breast feeding and you’d see some nipple, the world is going to implode…
Breasts. Beautiful. And for participation in nude bathing…there is no pressure to undress, so whatever works ;) I love it.
I will never forget being an LDS missionary in France and having one of our investigators pop her breast out to nurse in the middle of a meeting. And the only embarrassed people in the room were the four American missionaries. It was such an interesting thing that even the Mormons in France were just not that freaked out about a breast. I’m sometimes afraid that being TOO obsessed with modesty, we overly sexualize our parts. Great discussion DM : )
This post makes me think of the Kabuki bath house in San Francisco. I went one night when it was women only and swimsuit optional (on co-ed nights they are required). It felt so reassuring to see all the different shapes and sizes that women really come in, none of which included super-model thin with large breasts that seems to be the ideal in America. Experiences like that are a great reminder to me to be comfortable in my own skin, and I think it’s so funny that it takes a little nakedness for that reminder! It’s strange to me to think that our more “modest” culture has led to way more insecurities about our bodies. Maybe when my daughter’s a little older i’ll take her to a beach in France so she can learn this lesson too!
For me it would be not so much a confidence issue, but a message-sending issue – at least here in the U.S. I give sexual purity talks to youth groups and always address modesty. Being unclothed in a private setting is one thing, but it becomes an entirely different thing in public when it’s done provocatively. I teach the girls that clothing gives a sense of mystery to them, and that clothing can actually be more seductive – and enhancing/attractive – than baring it all. Most women have a natural, innate sense of modesty that should be respected and protected, especially when they’re adolescents in an American culture. Not in a prudish or negative way at all, but in a positive way that honors their beauty and dignity, which is precious. That said….if I knew no one was around, I would relish being topless in the sun …but you’d have to absolutely guarantee my total privacy!
Thank you for making this point! Would all of these mothers who would let their sons go to a nude beach let them go if it was frequented by groups of young college girls? I imagine not.
My standard of modesty is this: if a General Authority (Mormon thing)/church leader/neighbor down the street were at the same beach/pool with me, would I feel comfortable with what I was wearing? For me, I show my respect to others by being modest, as it is the social norm here. I’ve been on a clothing optional beach in the Caribbean and didn’t find it “liberating” or “beautiful.” More “eh” and a throwback to less civilized cultures and times.
I’m European and I was one of those kids (a girl, admittedly), that went to beaches with topless women (as one commentator earlier said, there is no such thing as a topless beach, all beaches can be topless, at least in Croatia where we used to spend our summers). I really don’t think I’m in any way scarred by that. I don’ t think I even noticed really. When I mom decided to go topless and I was a teenager I did feel a little uncomfortable, but nothing serious. It simply is not a sexual thing. Period.
I don’t go topless myself, because I don’t feel like it, I do wear bikinis though and don’t cover up when changing wet tops for dry ones. It’s the beach, it’s not a shop or a church or whatever. We have different clothing standards for a reason.
I think covering up just because you’re afraid of what some sort of authority might think or feel tempted into is in fact a “throwback to a less civilized culture and time”. (when pointed at you, that’s kinda insulting, don’t you think?)
Mo- I apologize, I did not mean to infer that places that have topless beaches are uncivilized. I’ve traveled all over Europe, and obviously it is the epitome of culture and civilization. It’s just that in the Caribbean, to me, the beaches I saw seemed kind of like something out of National Geographic. I don’t mean offense, it’s just my observation.
And as to General Authorities, these are church leaders similar to Bishops, Cardinals or Pastors in other religions. And I am not afraid of nor do I care what they think of me, rather I deeply care about how disrespectful it would be to be immodest in front of them. I wouldn’t dare disrespect the Pope either in this manner, even though he is the leader of another faith than mine. And by disrespect, yes, I mean nudity. I would have no problem wearing a swimsuit in front of these people in the same situation.
Isn’t it interesting that the idea of modesty as a show of respect to others isn’t as supported as the idea of nudity is.
“Isn’t it interesting that the idea of modesty as a show of respect to others isn’t as supported as the idea of nudity is.”
I wouldn’t say this is true. The commenters that are saying they would be okay bathing topless at a European beach, are not saying they would also bath topless at the community pool in Colorado. In Colorado, it wouldn’t be respectful and they understand that.
If the Pope, or any church leader, happened to have spare time to spend lounging at a public Italian beach, I’m guessing he or she would see bare breasts. If they made some sort of formal appearance at an event on an Italian Beach — say, the dedication of a site for a new religious sculpture, well then, that would be a particular event and I doubt anyone would show up topless.
I think people all over the world do a very good job of showing respect for others by wearing what’s appropriate for a particular activity.
I experienced a topless beach while studying in Europe during college (and went topless – I was 20, why not!). It had a huge impact on my life. I saw women at all ages and with every body possible on the spectrum. It was really clear that some women aged much better than others. I knew intuitively at the time that taking care of their bodies was probably the reason and it really helped me to commit to eating well and exercising. Now, in my 30’s that’s still an important priority for me. When I start to slide, I still think of those women’s bodies and how I’d like to look as I age!
I’ve been to beaches in Greece and went topless at age 28 for the first time. This was pre-kids but I was probably more self-conscious then than now. I would go topless again. I’m 35, been nursing for 5 years and am quite proud of my figure. And what’s funny is, it took a 10 lb weight gain recently to really truly feel comfortable in my own body. I was always trying to look skinny before and now that I’m not skinny but just normal I’m finally happy. If you know what I mean.
This is one of the most refreshing things about Europe. The over sexualization of the human form is extremely downplayed in Europe. While visiting in the Greek islands, I embraced the culture and topless sunbathed. When I went to take my top off, I thought everyone would stare at me. When i did, no one even looked! It was so refreshing to see women, proud of their bodies in a non sexual way. Vive Europe!
Last October we took a family vacation to Cancun. I have one girl and 3 boys. At the pool there was a lady going topless. My middle boy was the first to spot her, he just looked at her with his mouth open and shocked eyes bugging out, he is 7. When the 10 year old and 4 year old saw they pointed and the 4 year old said, “She is SO immodest!” We had a talk about how people get to choose what they wear, and let’s give her some space and respect to not keep looking. But I positive Im not confident enough to go topless. I do wonder however if I was brought up in a culture where that was the norm, and my parents were doing it, if I would really have a problem. Im so happy with my body and am not a shy person…
Fascinating answers here. I’m comfortable in my own skin and amazed by both my body and the inherent power in all women’s bodies. BUT – boobs in general kind of weird me out. So, my head says “NATURAL” and my heart says “Aaaack, nipples!” So silly, right? Breastfeeding is 100% natural, God-given and normal and yet – my friend’s bare boob at the pizza place had me choking on my slice. (And frankly, mine did as well when I nursed my son!?) Cultures aren’t the only conflict here! I’m a walking conflict! So, guess I’d be more likely to go bottomless than topless? Ha!!!!
(PS – DM, do you cull these responses or have we REALLY found an online community of readers sans trolls?! My faith in humanity may be restored!!!!!)
Ha! I visited a beach in the Canary Islands with my husband, our three young boys, AND both sets of our parents — his were mission presidents. The kids didn’t care about all the breasts, and the adults all pretended not to notice. But I must say, it was a fascinating education for me in sizes/shapes. I also admired the confidence level displayed.
I am a 24 year old female from New Zealand. We do not have a culture of topless sunbathing however we all have stories of a bit of a skinnydip with friends – a good laugh and good natured fun.
I lived in Australia for 2 years on the sunny gold coast where topless subathing is more common. I personally do not have a problem with it however it is important to guage whether being topless is appropriate for the area of beach you are on. If no one else is doing it and there are loads of young men around then it may be best to move down to a more secluded area. Noting of course that public nudity is against the law you may like to head for a secluded spot to avoid a slap on the wrist. I think it is wonderful that women can feel confident in their bodies to be topless and comfortable that those viewing them are not seeing them as sexual objects but as happy confident women. But yes, slip slop slap – burnt boobs are not fun at all.
funny you mentioned this. the first time for me was when i was in france! as i remember, everyone seemed topless that it felt weird to not be so i just went with it. i was also 20 years old. now 37, my body is not what it used to be so i feel even uncomfortable wearing a bathing suit. so, no, i won’t be going topless anymore, not even if i was on a beach in france.
I have no problem being topless or fully nude at a topless beach or at an all nude resort. It is SOOOOO freeing. I am over 50 and have over 10 children so my body is NOT the most gorgeous in the world AND it does NOT matter. All the people are different and NOBODY cares. It is just so nice and peaceful to not have to worry about what is showing and what is not, messing with bras and panties and socks and shoes. A lot less laundry too. I would not be embarrassed around my children but they may be embarrassed around me. My husband does not care.
In a similar experience but not quite the same as it was women only – when in Japan I visited quite a few onsens (Japanese bath houses). You have to be completely naked, and scrub yourself from head to foot in a communal room beforehand, then hop in a big shared hot pool. I was so nervous and self-conscious at first (I guess being the only non-Japanese woman made me feel extra different), but then being surrounded by girls, old women, mums, toddlers all together for their routine wash and thinking nothing of it, it made me think that it’s a much more healthy approach to nudity. Especially as a self-conscious teenager it must be nice to grow up knowing how different everyone’s bodies are and that yours isn’t so weird after all, and it’s nothing to be ashamed of.
We took our honeymoon in Greece (Athens, Mykonos, and Santorini) where topless women are also commonplace on the beaches. It is a bit odd, coming from an American culture to see that, but ultimately – there’s nothing to see. It’s just women with bodies as equally “imperfect” as mine. I personally did not get topless. It’s not so much modesty as just not wanting my tots out for all to see. They are mine, you know? Not to mention – can you imagine getting sunburned THERE?! Ouch!
Wow, I am squirming in my chair just reading about it! Nope I definitely couldn’t do it. It even bugs me at the gym when women walk around letting it all hang out! We adopted, so i never breastfed. I do feel like my girlfriends that did BF are more comfortable with their breasts. What does make me sad is all the sudden my 7 year old is afraid to get dressed in front of her friends when they play dress up. Great discussion!
It seems like certain resort areas are marketed at certain continents, because often when I go outside Europe, the hotel is still largely if not totally European. I can assure you that the topless sunbathing is a norm for those on the continent! After years and years to get used to it, I still find it shocking – not really for modesty reasons anymore, but because it just feels quite … assaulting, is probably the word. I know we’re meant to be all about the beauty of the female body, and I’m not saying anyone should be insecure, but breasts just aren’t that pretty. Obviously my own don’t bother me, and I’m sure if I was in love with another woman I’d think hers were beautiful, but in general they’re just not really what I want to see. I think clothes ad a nice layer of illusion and make being undressed in front of someone a more personal thing, as I personally believe it should be for adults.
Here in Britain, it seems as though there’s the typical class – note, not wealth – divide (which can be applied to showing emotion, as well as breasts): the middle/upper class keep it hidden, the younger working class dare to bare.
That said, I think I’d be fine with going topless on the beach, so long as others were doing it too.
O yes, I would go topless! Anything to draw attention away from my thighs!
Hahahaha
Hah! This made me laugh.
Love it! I always think I look better nude than clothed. Clothes accentuate my flaws, but nude, I quite like how things look.
My feelings exactly!
My family is from Greece and when I last went, one of my aunts drove my husband and I over to my other aunts house. She was sitting out side her front door with shorts and just a bra on! She is fairly old and heavy and needless to say somewhat embarrassed especially for my husbands sake. Then I thought, well this is my aunt and we are in Greece. My aunt was overjoyed to see us and didn’t seem to notice she had no shirt on.
What I would like to know is when did topless beaches become fashionable? I’m sure 100 years ago no one was topless on beaches. What caused the switch. Any history buffs out there that might know the answer?
Oh quite the contrary. I would assume 100 years ago everyone bathed nude. If you couldn’t afford indoor plumbing, why on earth would you spend money on a suit? My very uneducated guess is that swimsuits are a rather modern invention.
One funny story my old boss told me. Her husband took a swimming class at the U of Utah (this would be the 60s, I think) and everyone swam nude! And girls passing by the pool would stand on their tiptoes to see in the little windows and peek at the boys. Hilarious. But anway, it illustrates how times have changed!
A 100 years ago would have been the height of the post-Victorian period. Heck, no, people would not have been nude. That was when an exposed ankle was absolutely scandalous: http://www.victoriana.com/library/Beach/FashionableBathingSuits.htm
Women didn’t participate in swimming as a sport until post WWI. This site even mentions bathing costumes being worn in Ancient Greece: http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~roseying/ids110/WHIS.HTM
Fascinating stuff, history.
P.S. That UofU story is hilarious!
I really WISH we in the U.S. could be more comfortable with our bodies and not sexualize everything that’s normally covered with clothes. I think it would be AWESOME to be that comfortable in our own skins. That said, I don’t have the confidence to go to a topless beach! However, I did go to a public bath with three of my closest friends and we were all expected to be nude inside. It took a little getting used to, but after about 30 minutes it was completely comfortable. It helped that there were 80 year old Korean ladies walking around naked, too, AND it helped that it was a single-gender bath. I would be uncomfortable around men, not because of anything sexual (two of those friends are lesbians) but because I feel like they’d judge me more than the women did.
Your comment about covering up to nurse babies hit home with me. I was thinking of the very thing just the other day as I tried to nurse my baby in a public place. She’s starting to get so she doesn’t want to have a cover over her and it’s a constant battle to keep it on. It would be SO much easier if other people didn’t have such hang ups about what shows while nursing. I’m not saying I would let it all hang out, but it would be so much easier if I didn’t feel like I had to hide.
So on that note, I would totally go topless right now because it would be easier to nurse the baby! (Although I suspect that would be very much frowned upon at our neighborhood pool here in conservative Indiana. :)
Join me on the right side of the chapel! I’ve decided I’m not being sentenced to the mother’s lounge, but I can either fight my baby or feed her. I’m going with feeding her. Sometimes I feel like covering up draws more attention than just getting it done without a fight. (Funny enough, a pregnant woman sitting right behind me asked me a few weeks ago if I was nursing. Apparently she hadn’t noticed our little struggle to get the process going, the noisy sucking or all of the other things I just knew were so conspicuous. Maybe I make myself more nervous about public nursing than I should.)
I feel like someone, especially in conservative communities, will be scandalized by just about anything and there will be those who shrug their shoulders and think, “meh.”
My first trip to Europe was in the summer of 1977 when I was seven. We went to several beaches in Italy and not only where the women topless, they were skinny, bronzed, and wearing stilettos in the sand. I noticed and then promptly got on with my seven-year-old beach activities. While I have been back to Europe many times since then, it was just the summer before last that I found myself back on the Italian beaches. We went to Capri, Positano, and Lido–only on Lido did I see a topless woman (and she was definitely not the long, lithe, brozed goddess I remembered from the 70s.) However, the only people wearing a one-piece were a 90-year-old grandmother and me. This poor guy in Capri couldn’t stop staring at me, like “what is the 30-something woman doing in that bathing suit?” I felt as awkward in my one-piece on that beach as I would have felt in a brazilian thong bikini at my country club. I told my husband that next time I am definitely wearing a two-piece even I have to go buy one specifically.
Oh, how I wish it wasn’t so but I am ashamed of my body. I have no discomfort with seeing women of all shapes and sizes go topless in France and I deeply envy their comfort in their own skin.
Beth! I’m sure you’re beautiful!!!
When I backpacked through Europe in my 20’s I got very comfortable topless sun bathing in France very quickly. I loved the freedom of it, but then I went from France to Italy and took my top off, only realize I was the only one with it off! I was bashful for a split second, but then I just pretended I was French and enjoyed my day. :)
What I want to know, is how did your kids do with all the nudity? When my parents took me to a nude beach in Martha’s Vineyard as a small child, I went around pointing out all the boobies and cocks I saw… “Look mom…” I was a very observant child!
When I backpacked in France we were at a beach with topless sunbathers. I in my modesty (and self-consciousness) was wearing a tankini…and more people were staring at that! They knew instantly that I wasn’t French- ha!
American ideas of a topless beach are far from what they actually are in different countries. I live near Las Vegas and a few of the casinos now have topless pool areas. I havent been to them but going by the advertising and the American idea of topless Im sure they are filled with women showing off their implants and that the atmosphere is very sexy. Topless beaches in other countries are totally the opposite. It is very liberating to see women of all ages and body types strolling around, totally comfortable. As comfortable as if they were totally clothed. I found it very freeing to see women (of all sizes) totally comfortable in their skin, not worried about if they were saggy or showing cellulite. It really affected me and the way I viewed my own body. As far as modesty goes, I think its all relative. We’re American & Christian and I teach my daughter to be modest in accordance with both of those things in mind. She is only 6 but when she sees something that she thinks is attractive (usually has something to do with dancing lol) she always asks if it modest and we discuss why or why not. If we lived in a different country I think things would be different. Modesty is relative. There are cultures where it is the norm to walk around topless but to show your knees is taboo. Our culture is so sexualized to the extent that breastfeeding in public is even an issue. While I dont see things changing here anytime soon I would totally go topless at a beach where it was the norm and thats coming from someone who hates having to go in public in a bathing suit. I do agree with others that it would be harder to do so if you were with others that you knew (other than family) that were American as they would have a different mindset and would then see it differently, kwim? Sorry this got so long!
I love your comment, Genevieve!
This is an interesting discussion on so many levels. I was born and live in Australia, having spent a couple of years living in Alberta, Canada, when I was in my late 20s. We noticed the differences in what was popular in swimwear – much more covered in Canada, boxer-style shorts for men etc. With a toddler and a young baby, I was also bemused by the “nursing capes” in the baby stores.
In Australia I was used to people wearing brief-style costumes at the beach, women choosing whether they wanted to wear their top or not, babies and young children bathing sans cossie, and breastfeeding without needing to cover up. When people cover anything here, it’s to keep the sun off.
I guess changes in people’s attitudes take a long time to happen, and in the meantime, many people would follow the norm, so as not to offend. It is probably a good subject for someone’s anthropology thesis, on how, like continental drift, the gap between cultures and practices on body-consciousness, is wide.
I’ve been vacationing in Europe since I was young so was used to seeing topless women, then it came to my turn to do it and I had no problems, and I am by no means thin or have amazing breasts.
I loved the feeling of the sun on my chest. Whenever I get a chance I do it, even in my backyard in Canada, where noone can see me. In Europe nobody stares, its normal so it is the perfect place to do it.
I recommend all women should try it at least once, even if it is on a secluded beach or in your backyard, you’ll see how nice it feels!
First, I love you pointing out the odd paradox of implants and feeling the need to cover while you nurse in public in the US…so very odd, no?! Anyhoo, yes, I’ve been to topless beaches and I, too, was left very surprised at the crowd that was topless. Rather than young girls being topless when, quite frankly, their breasts are at their best, it was all women in their 40’s on up. I find that interesting because it shows how with age, confidence, wisdom, and perspective matures and cancels out, in some light, the insecurities of being young. I was actually on my honeymoon at this beach, myself in my early 20’s, and would not even consider the idea of removing my top. However, three (nursed) children later, a few pounds heavier, but a ton more comfortable in my own skin, I may entertain the thought. I guess, with age, your body is more than a surface ornament…I am constantly amazed that what my body has done, the gifts it has given me, and the scars that I bear that make me…me.
“with age, confidence, wisdom, and perspective matures and cancels out, in some light, the insecurities of being young”
I think that’s true.
I haven’t been to europe, but if my Husband and I get to go one day like we hope (sans kids) I will go for it and go topless!
I would be absolutely comfortable to go topless as long as I don’t run into any family/friends, that would be uncomfortable. Same for breast-feeding. With all my three sons, I covered up all the way around people I and my husband know, but was more flexible around strangers.
Context means so much!
We vacationed in Cuba years ago. Many of the women at the beach in Veradero were topless. Most of the women were, as you described in France, not the objects of normal lust, they were older women, or larger women, nothing close to the American “ideal.” At 21 I was happy to take my top off too, but I know that now I wouldn’t dare.
Uh, no. Definitely not comfortable with topless. All would be traumatized along with myself!
I will be the odd one out here: I have a 10 yr old & we don’t do nakie shoulders. Not to church, not to school, not in the summer.
And I wouldn’t do the topless beach. God fixed two things for me. He made me SO white that I can be seen from space, and my tatas do not fall under the normal range. And after breastfeeding, 3 c-sections, it would take an hour of bushwhacking just to get IN the suit. After sea salt water hit all that y’all would be staring a my golfball dimpled rear, shave rash and ample tatas bounding along the beach.
No, God never intended this skin to be exposed. I am the poster child FOR covering up. Me & DI can go to the Scottish beaches in our thermals- the way God intended me to be. Congrats to all you liberated topless-ers. I’ll be holdin yer bikini tops for ye!
We used to go to them all the time when we were kids vacationing in Holland. My mom would go and sometimes we’d be embarassed until the summer my sister put just her bikini bottoms on and said she felt “liberated” (she was 10)… Now as a plus size, Mormon wife and mother people assume this would be a no go, but I’d do it in a heart beat (and plan on it when I visit Europe for three months next year…)!
Am I the only woman who prefers keeping the girls supported? It hurts to take my b-cups out of halter. If I am at the beach (which is rare because I detest sand), I want to PLAY and not worry about bouncing all over the place. Ugh.
I didn’t see activities like beach volleyball happening, but if they did happen, I assume the ladies would just put their tops on. : )
I grew up vacationing on European beaches, but still am too much of a prude to do it myself. I wish I was a little more comfortable with my body.
Here in the NW there are many clothing optional places (http://cgwc.org/). And quite honestly its quite liberating to attend (especially) a ladies only event to find that we all basically have the same body parts yet in different shapes, sizes and colors. Americans are generally way too modest with their bodies in my opinion. If we were all
Where I live you can walk down the street topless (not that I would!) The by-law was passed a few years ago but after the initial shock of it, I haven’t seen women going topless since.
I have my own body insecurities from before having children and although I am now more accepting of my body post kids, I still would not go topless, beach or not. That being said, it does not bother me to see other people choose to do so. I was at a topless beach a number of years ago in I believe France. Like you, I didn’t realize it was one at the time and not everyone was topless, but I also found myself strangely fascinated :)
I think topless beaches are totally fine. Every time I go to France or other European locale I am struck by how freeing it is to not be obsessed with body image. I wish north Americans would just get over it and get comfortable, a t least with nursing in public.
Did you know that for the French, the ability to legally sunbathe topless was a real feminist battleground? French feminists thought to force women to wear a bikini top when men don’t have to was unequal and unfair, so they campaigned to have it legalised.
It’s on the wane now though: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/jul/22/topless-bathing-france (Brigitte Bardot’s topless back on that link)..
Thanks for the link! I’m definitely going to check out that article.
Hi Gabrielle! I am so behind on blog reading, but how funny that this is where I’d jump in this summer! My first topless beach experience was in France and it was very much as you described…ladies comfortable in their own skin. I am so NOT that comfortable in my own skin, but even if I were, not sure that I want more than my husband seeing it all. That’s just me. I’ve always been modest…even pre-children with a tight tummy and perky boobs. I can’t believe I just wrote that! Tee hee! Hope you got a good laugh! I bet you’re having fun with these comments.
On another note, I think those of us with “real mom” bodies are at a huge disadvantage in this culture of plastic surgery, taught skin and perkiness. Sad. But as my girls see my lines and sags, I tell them they are worth it! Wouldn’t trade them for the world!
xo,
Linsey
When I lived in Vienna people would sunbathe nude in the park. It was certainly surprising to me, after all it was a public park. I think that is just the norm in Europe. To each his own… :)
[ Note from Design Mom:
I removed this anonymous comment. FYI: If a commenter leaves a false email address, so they can’t be contacted, the comment is considered anonymous. ]
Wow. Refreshing to hear the man’s point of view. Thanks, AZ! I have 7 sons (3 are teenagers), so I am always aware of what the menfolk might be thinking.
I also wanted to comment on the breastfeeding in public thread. With my first baby, I always covered up. With the second, I was skilled enough at it to not flash too much, but still covered up. I remember, with one particularly squirmy baby, my husband holding the blanket over me as I tried to (not so discreetly) nurse in public. Baby #3 would have nothing to do with being covered. Since then, I haven’t worried about it, and I’ve not had many stares or rude comments.
Just like the nude sunbathing, nurse with confidence. Don’t be “in your face” about it, but don’t apologize for feeding your baby, either. Last week I went to a waterpark in Utah and breastfed my twin babies – in a one-piece suit. I had to pull the top down and was somewhat exposed, but didn’t get a single gawk. That’s the real attractiveness of the female form: the simple beauty of a loving woman.
This is very normal in Spain also…..and children without bathing suits also is very normal…..(that would be young children!!)……when we were there my son was 14!…..and he very much enjoyed going to the beach!…….however, like you said, I was very comfortable in a bathing suit and it just seemed so okay there!…..my son (who is an adult now and would still enjoy topless beaches if he lived in Europe) would agree with AZ!!
I came across this last year and I was vacationing in Italy. I was surprised to see that it didn’t bother me that much though ( and I am mormon as well:). I think it was because it wasn’t a sexual thing, instead it was how you described it, mothers and women of all ages who just didn’t want tan lines I guess. Even though I didn’t get bothered by it, I don’t think that I am anywhere close to being comfortable with doing so myself, so I think I’ll stick to my bikini until my body allows me to, and then one peace for me.
What I can’t help wondering is, if the topless sunbathing isn’t, at least on some level, about sex, then what *is* it about? If it’s about an even tan, isn’t an even tan also about sex, on some level? (Or at the very least about vanity?) Why would we want evenly tanned breasts if not because they’re perceived as sexy?
In other words, to ask the opposite of your question, setting aside sexiness, what’s the point of toplessness?
I guess one other reason that’s been suggested is comfort–but I have a hard time believing that’s really the major reason in the majority of cases. Is it really SO confining to wear a one-piece or a bikini top? (I have a lot more sympathy with toplessness if it’s truly about comfort, though, than if it’s about sexiness or vanity.)
At the same time I do value a matter-of-fact attitude about bodies, I think bodies are beautiful, and I think there’s great value in learning to appreciate all sizes and shapes. But I’m just not sure that there’s not more going on than that in the undercurrent of the topless beach scene.
I guess I feel like so what if it is in part about sex. Sex is natural too. So what if a man is looking. I would guess most are not. I just feel it is all part of being human. Not so right or wrong just is.
Hmmm. Zina, my sense was there wasn’t a lot of thought or pre-meditation in the decision. I don’t think it necessarily had to do with vanity, sexiness or comfort. It was just standard normal beach behavior. I couldn’t see any ulterior motives.
Your question is making me think. I am uncomfortable with the implication that all nudity or vanity is by definition sexual. I think we can take pride in our own appearance and want to look a certain way without it being chalked up to sexual motives. Covering up is, after all, a convention, a societal norm; it isn’t biological.
Let’s put it another way. In European culture, bathing suit tops are obviously considered optional. Breasts are no big deal. Here, hats are optional. Hats on the beach make sense; they keep our faces and parts of our bodies from being sunburned, and can be quite fetching. But nobody is required to wear one, and uncovering your head is no big deal anyway. The question, then, about whether choosing to wear a hat can be boiled down to “sexual” becomes somewhat absurd. In that same context, asking if the decision not to wear a bathing suit top is sexual also takes on some absurdity, does it not?
I can understand Zina’s point, asking if it’s possible to remove the element of sexuality from being nude. I personally believe that nakedness does not need to equate to sex, but I think it’s a valid question to address. It also seems many commenters suggest that women’s breasts are more sexualized in the US than in Europe, because partial-nudity is accepted on many beaches in Europe, but the level of sexualization may not necessarily be more or less.
Having lived in Germany and visited other countries in Europe, and likewise in US cities, I have noticed advertisements on the streets showing women partially-nude, offering clubs or services where women or men show themselves naked, and those displays make me uncomfortable. Also with artistic drawings, paintings or sculptures, I find many works showing the nude body to be inspiring and beautiful, and other works may feel degrading or disrespectful to me.
I’ve had a few experiences on beaches where partial-nudity is allowed, and found the the not-an-issue/not-something-inappropriate attitude to be refreshing. Like Gabrielle said, I think the majority of beach-goers there simply don’t have the teaching in their mind that wearing no top would be an issue/something inappropriate, and most aren’t worrying about whose looking at their body or how they’re being seen. Like in Finland, almost all families have saunas in their homes, and enjoy them together nude. As a child, I remember my mother loved taking baths, and would let us walk in and talk with her.
I suppose, without sexiness, the point of toplessness for women or men, other than practical cleanliness of shower/bath/sauna, would be if your physical temperature is very hot and you want to cool down, or if you want to swim and feel the water on your skin, and you’re in the context to comfortably remove your top, like on a beach in France or with your family at home, etc.
It is interesting to hear your thoughts on the culture differences. In sweden there is no topless-beaches, the word doesn’t exists. But it is OK to be topless at all beaches. And it is also OK for kids to be naked if they wish.
As a Swede living in US I am experience this culture difference in an opposite way. I went to the playground with water features with my 3,5 and 5,5 year old. My youngest didn’t make it to the restroom in time, so after washing him off in the restroom I let him walk naked to our bag which was on the other side of the playground. The 1 min walk made me feel so bad, I got angry looks and one Mom covered up her daughters eyes. The girl was around the same age as my son.
It made me feel sad. Because that Mom should my boys that nudity is not OK. You are not OK as you are born. Why not teach our kids to like their bodies?
[ Note from Design Mom:
This comment has been removed by me.
I wrote this below, but I’ll include it again here — for future reference, any comments implying that women are responsible for the thoughts of men, or that any person is responsible for the thoughts of another person, will be taken down. ]
As a European I’m always taken aback when discussing these topics with Americans. I’ve been absolutely amazed when in a spa a group of American students couldn’t deal with European men of all ages wearing speedos instead of trunks. Are those men too sexual for the majority of men, too?
Hmm. I don’t feel like this is a fair representation of my comment, but I guess I could always take this topic to my own blog if I wanted to pursue it further.
Gabby, I have always respected you and have always enjoyed what you have to say. This comment, however, shot my adoration to a whole new level. It is so refreshing to hear someone with strong religious conviction say that it is not a woman’s responsibility to control the thoughts of men, or that any person is responsible for the thoughts of other people. I believe you are right, of course, and am thankful that you have used your platform to say so.
While I don’t have children yet, I can only hope that I am able to be as rational, loving, optimistic and supportive a parent as you. Kudos to you for exposing your family to new experiences and encouraging healthy debate (both on this blog and, I am sure, at the dinner table).
I wish Zina’s post had not been removed. I didn’t read her comment, but someone who saw it before it was deleted told me roughly what it said, and I think it is unfortunate that such different opinions can’t at least be explored.
It is careless and irresponsible to assume that nudity has no effect upon men. There is far too much to say about this, and the nuances are—well—endless, as inferred in the lions share of comments on this post. To be sure, the finer points ARE controversial and difficult to navigate. But it is important to explore arguments that make people uncomfortable—especially ones that concern the ramifications of sex, nudity, and beauty in God-given nature in the body.
There is far too much to say about attraction between the sexes, and the appropriateness or inappropriateness of nudity. I am not an absolutest on the topic. As I said, there are a multiplicity of nuances. I just wish Zina’s post had not been removed.
Herb, I agree, it’s great when we can explore differing opinions. But in this case, I’m unwilling to let comments stand that I feel are anti-women. I interpret comments that imply women are responsible for the thoughts of men as anti-women. I took AZ’s comment down for the same reason.
I can’t imagine that anyone would argue “nudity has no effect upon men”, but men are affected by women no matter how they’re dressed. In college, I took a course called American Heritage where they showed poll results that said the first thing men notice about women is their hair. Should women be required to cover their hair so they don’t distract men? My curves still show in jeans and a t-shirt. Should I be required to wear a tent-dress to hide them so men don’t notice the curves? Lots of men get turned on by beautiful faces. Should we decide which people are beautiful and make them wear masks?
I repeat. Women are not responsible for the thoughts of men. Any more than children are responsible for the thoughts of pedophiles. Period. Exclamation point. If you think there’s room for discussion on this point, perhaps you can find another forum.
Gabby,
Thank you for so thoughtfully and eloquently expressing what I feel is an important point, so I’m going to put my own two cents in.
What a slippery slope! If the way a woman dresses (or doesn’t dress, if in an appropriate place to be lacking certain clothing) puts her in a position of being responsible for anyone’s thoughts, wouldn’t it be an easy jump to make the case for her then being responsible for another’s actions through her manner of dress, no matter how inappropriate, abusive, violent or illegal those actions may be.
I appreciate your clear and thoughtful management of the discussion around this.
Carrie